You will no doubt realize that much of what we said on the audio is absent in these notes. If anyone would like to transcribe this, as well as any other audio into a more accurate script, I would welcome it!
ADAM:
Well Jim, in last week’s program entitled “Regarding Choice� we discussed the passage in Titus 1:15 that spoke of the believers continual purity and cleanliness being something that was being challenged by those of the circumcision in Crete. We had a tremendous response from our listeners on this topic and so we are glad today to continue on with this mini series with this week’s title; “Regarding Choice�- Growing in Grace.
JIM:
I’ll give a quick recap here.
Include how Paul was often challenged by the same leaders from Jerusalem who came behind him to clean up what they would have considered heresy. Damage control.
Describe the Circumcision again with attention upon the intimidation factor, especially with how someone like Peter got snagged. Others would have succumbed to the same pressure. Those who are regarded as strong leaders, especially those with a heavy emphasis upon morality.
Adam’s Response Here: Morality is such a threatening thing when it is seen through the lens of self effort. When seen in it’s proper place, through Christ the Living One, it is good news all the way through! Those that push morality without any reliance on the Spirit, have been severed from the Head. They are not “walking by the Spirit� and therefore do not stand approved. They only serve to intimidate. But what else are we expecting from those who can not hear, can not SEE the very real deliverance that is ongoing for us in Christ? We certainly have enough trouble just walking in something WE can’t see. lol Jim?
JIM:
Legalistic leaders undermine the faith of the saints by squelching any suggestion that Christ actually made us pure. This is the lie upon which all their moralizing is built.
Adam:
We also gave our thoughts on some of the questions you posed regarding how it is we live and grow in this life of holiness in Christ Jesus. Do things simply vanish as we have our eyes on our Perfector and Finisher? Or must we work at becoming MORE holy, more clean?
JIM:
If we listen to the moralistic mind of fleshly religion we would have to conclude that any victory over sin is an ongoing struggle of epic proportions. What the fleshly religious system has dulled our senses to is that we have already been freed from sin in the most real way. That moralistic [LAW-STRIVING FOR IT] perception keeps us from seeing it. That’s why Paul referred to it as putting it off.-
ADAM: Jim I think we get a large dose of this message in the body of Christ today. Take for instance the reality of growing in grace. Is that just some kind of description of an ongoing struggle not to sin as you mentioned just a minute ago? That’s what many hear when reading letters like Romans, James and many others of the New Testament letters. Jim you mentioned Paul referring to the “putting off� of the old and putting on the new. Why do think he used THAT sort of language? How does that fit with the reality growing in us of His grace? And let’s not forget the wonderful statement we read from our brother Mark “it just fell off�!
JIM:
Sure …
ADAM:Jim getting back to this concept of growing in grace. What do most think it actually is?
jim:�Growing in grace� is little more than an empty phrase that is often built upon the same false fleshly premise that our life in Christ is all about our choices between good and evil, rather than the truth that we have been made righteous and holy and good in Him. It is the same lie of the mind that can only see defilement in all things. This is why those of this perception will constantly denounce any true testimony to the life of Christ.
ADAM:You say “good and evil�. Can you give an example of this good and evil? I mean what exactly is that?
Take for instance the mention in Hebrews…â€?having our senses trained between good and evil.â€? In my estimation,we get this statement used AGAINST us by having it turned into some sort of “balanceâ€? of sin focus along with grace in Christ. By trying to balance the two, we nullify the one and thus serve bondage and not the life of God.
JIM:
Yes. And once again, the very idea that we live between good and evil denies the very reality Christ made.[TALK MORE ABOUT US CHOOSING GOOD AND GOOD AND GOOD..]
ADAM:
*Laws of Virtue [this world’s version of fruit from the spirit of christ living in you]
*Each one speak truth to his neighbor for we are all one bodyâ€?-VERY different [as in sourced from another place] than a standard of honesty or a law of virtue “i am living up toâ€?. trickery there again…that’s following the law and the dead principals of the world.
*Consider honesty in this context [the worlds version of it] is blurting out the truth so that it loses it’s salt, its heart of love. It is the effort to be honest and not the fruit of christ. Christ is not trying hard, his burden i that work is “lite�.
BREAK::—————————————————————————-
Questions our listeners might be asking:
* Does our purity make our failures [aka: Sins] “okay�? wHAT ABOUT THE DAMAGE CAUSED?
JIM:
The whole idea, including the accusation that the grace of Christ makes sins okay, comes from the reasoning of the fleshly mind. That’s right, all those teachings that come from the religious mind need to be exposed for what they are, otherwise they keep hammering at us with their perverted sense of purity.
ADAM:
[FALSE PURITY]-MUCH LIKE THE FALSE TELLING OF TRUTH MENTIONED EARLIER./
JIM:
Definitely a false purity, but this is the stuff so many of us buy into, and that makes it SEEM confusing. Listen to how Paul related this to the Colossians:
If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!� (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)–in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence. Colossians 2:20-23
If you have died with Christ …. why submit to the principles, rules, regulations, decrees that belong to the world you have been delivered from?
Do not handle … do not taste … do not touch
We hear this everywhere we go in one form or another, and it comes across as being the very essence of purity, doesn’t it? But these regulations do absolutely nothing to curb self-indulgence. Nevertheless, we will still hold onto the slightest chance that it might help this time.
As far as the damage goes, we know where it comes from, and it must be met head-on … but with life.
————————
ADAM:
To the pure all things are pure/clean. Could this be the very thing Paul was getting at with statements such as: “For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.� Does this mean that they are holy TO US? Or that they are holy? To the pure all things are pure.
JIM:[response to the mentioned passage]
Adam:
Timing: Jim could it be that when Paul came to the point of addressing the actions of his church’s there was a certain timing[in the “fullness of time�-God’s time] that was taking place in them so that when it was spoken, it was a situation where it set the scene for “it just fell off� as opposed to “do this and be better�.
Comments
We are not the mud!  Adam
We are not the mud!
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Adam
Again, such a good audio!!
Again, such a good audio!! The discussion on morality, and what it really is to grow in grace were so excellent. For me, what exploded into such a clear reality was your comments on "putting off". Jim said: Paul used language like that because it pictured something that didn't belong on them. Wow, it just overwhelmed me with how beautifully simple and real our identity in Him is. And then, your example of Lazarus being raised from the dead and Jesus saying take the grave clothes off of him. Perfect example of you all and I.
Well here I am all bubbling with excitement again. Thanks Jim and Adam
Bubbling with excitement :)
Julie, you sure know how to encourage a heart with your responses! Thank you.
Jim
I've been thinking of this
I've been thinking of this passage a few times since the first audio on, "Regarding Choice".
HELLO!...And I say this because of the incredible, collective, and complete TRUTH that has become ours in Christ!!
John 8:44
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
We aren't even of the lineage of the flesh anymore! We have been made NEW, into a NEW CREATION, 'Born from above', with the new identity! We are speaking from the reality of being the "SONS OF GOD". We carry out our Father's desires and they are GOOD! Of course, we speak of the New and TO the New because that is what we ARE! That's why we are so encouraged by it!:) This double-mindedness (of religion) has 'it's' source in the realm of the flesh and doesn't provide any more 'sin' solution than it ever did in the O.C.
I had to chuckle when Adam talked about Lazarus. The man was DEAD! Taking off the bandages was FREEDOM from the YUCK that was weighing him down. I can only imagine him jumping up and down in lightness, and refreshment!
Thank the Father for a COMPLETE salvation. I thank him for the 'foolishness' that is so much higher than the 'wisdom of man'!
Wonderful to read this, Mary!
Wonderful to read this, Mary! It is exciting to realize how we really have been raised from the dead, isn’t it? :)
Jim
Wonderfully beautiful
Mary, that one line says it so beautifully. "We aren't even of the lineage of the flesh anymore!!!!" And then all else you said, just enhanced the truth of our identity, (which I can never hear enough of,). and it left my heart so excited.
Thanks dear Mary............ Julie
Man, it is good to hear that
Man, it is good to hear that Mary!
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Adam
Growing in Grace
Jim & Adam,
Best audio for me yet!!!
Talk about practical, down to earth, where we live truth! I love you guys!! This is what we as Christians need to hear! Satan hates this and this is what does damage to his influence in us as believers in Jesus Christ.
My heart was blessed and my spirit was agreeing with you and the Father in you through Jesus and His ministering through you to us. This is the "Good News" of Jesus. Praise God it is a total gift and completed in Him for us just to enjoy!!! Wow!! Do not sweat it, never worry, Jesus says, I've got it all covered. Just enjoy who you have become because of Me!! "It is finished". Wow what JOY, what PEACE, what REST!! We can say to the flesh:Is that all you got? Is that your best shot? Compared to Jesus who is EVERYTHING and has made us one with Him. Our spirit is completely melded into His and we are now one together forever!! That is shouting ground!
Martin Luther said, "nothing you do helps you spiritually, only faith will help."
Mike Quarles says, "We are set free not by how we behave, but by what we believe. Bondage is the result of believing lies. Freedom is the result of believing truth. Truth is what God says regardless of your feelings. Only one thing keeps you in bondage-believing lies. Only one thing sets you free-believing the truth and walking by faith.
Jesus said, 'Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.'"
That is what you share in this audio, THE TRUTH!! That is what changes us!!
Charlie "Tremendous" Jones used to say, "It is not what you read and memorize that changes you but what you think and realize that changes you. You don't have to work at changing because when you realize something then you are changed already." Wow, doesn't that go against what we have heard all our life. So when we realize that Christ has already changed us we can now enter into the reality of that because we are operating in the truth and the reality of who we have already become.
Bless you both for continuing to make these audios. Lord willing tonight at our gathering of believers we will be playing the first 32 minutes of this audio and sharing with one another what Christ has revealed to us through your sharing.
I thank God for you both,
Dan
This thrills my heart!
My brother Dan, I am so encouraged to read these words, especially as I’ve been so involved in the background work of website maintenance and wondering if most of my “visitors� are probably spam-bots or hackers trying to get in. I am so excited to know that our discussions have such real-life and down-to-earth meaning to you. :)
Jim
Thanks so much Dan!  Adam
Thanks so much Dan!
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Adam
Dan, I hope you can share
Dan, I hope you can share with us how those who attended took the audio.[if indeed it turns out you were able to share]
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I just rejoice with you that these things have so ministered to you.
Luvin,
Luvin,
For the most part everyone loved it.
There was one who had a challenge with it because they still felt it was their responsibility to keep the flesh in line in others as well as themselves. Others that they know, mainly full time ministers, had been involved in sin and were excusing it because of their stance on God leading them to do what they did or that they were perfect in Christ and could do whatever they wanted. As Steve McVey would say that is not grace but disgrace.
When we see others abusing their pagan positions we may think it is up to us to straighten them out or cause them to change and yet it is only God that can truly change anyone. We are not the 'Body of Christ' police. God does not force us to obey and we don't need to feel that we are more responsible than God. As Jesus said, "let the dead bury the dead". Christ is about life!
Again, one of the great barriers to entering into Christ's life is the constant focus we place on behavior instead of on our identity in Christ based on what He did in us and who we have become in Him. When we know our identity then our behavior will automatically be changing to match who we really are.
The world system has it backwards, they focus on behavior and think that it changes their identity. Jesus told those who had the best religious behavior that they were of their father the devil who was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. They were white washed sepulchres filled with dead men's bones. Pretty on the outside but full of stench and death. An appearance of righteousness but not a reflection of who they really were.
This is a description of all unsaved good doers. Jesus said only the spirit of a man knows the man. Our true identity is directly tied to our spirit. Our soul can be fooled into believing lies but it is our spirit that determines who we really are.
This Friday night as God wills we are going to listen to Help Me Help You audio! This is another great message for a better understanding of Christ's work in us.
Dan
Behavior, good or bad, is
Behavior, good or bad, is defined by the one doing the judging, isn’t it? Behavior that’s in line with the truth of the gospel will still be judged according to the eyes of the scrutinizers … just as it was with Jesus himself.
I am so encouraged that our audios are reaching the ears of those in your group! Wow, thanks for sharing this, my brother.
Jim
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