Adam:
Well in last week’s audio entitled: “To The Pure: Loved in Suffering”, Jim and I spoke quite a bit about the worldly ‘self-talk’ one will hear in the face of suffering and how it is SO tempting to conform to the ‘mind of the world’ in times of trouble. I think we tackled some really great stuff last week Jim.

Jim:
Yes, I think we hit some excellent things … such as the recognition that’s been regarded as “suffering for Jesus” is sometimes — or should I say, it’s way too often a manufactured substitute for the reality that is going on behind the scenes. I think a lot of us realize that we’ve been called into a life where some kind of persecution is almost expected. I mean, Jesus did tell his disciples to be prepared to be treated just as he himself was. And so, I wonder how many of us, armed with this expectation, have set ourselves up to make sure it happens? And by that, I refer to the many different ways we’ve learned to provoke a strong reaction so that we appear to be suffering for Jesus rather than simply catching flak for being confrontational.

Adam
Well this week’s audio is entitled “To The Pure: No Strings Attached?”
Jim, I find it fascinating how many of us in Christ can talk about love for God, love for our enemies and each other but, when the rubber meets the road, we seem to go in circles around a concept rather than a living ,fixed, reality ?
How many of us have asked ourselves if God is ‘for” me as others say His love is “unconditional”, then why is every encoded message I hear about Him, always conditional? It seems the more we hear about His love in the body of christ, the more we want it and the more we want it, the further away it gets from one’s grasp? With every doctrine I ingest, with every fleshly-made interpretation of love in Christ I see, I stand to get hungrier and hungrier but, can not seem to find the meal!

Jim:
If we would consider the many ways we’ve heard people profess everlasting love, we might think it would last more than a few years … or maybe just a few months. But let’s face it, such false professions have influenced our perceptions regarding “unconditional love,” haven’t they? You see, it’s the conditional mind that feels compelled to continually boast of its undying love when, in fact, it has no real concept of what it’s claiming. To quote a line from the famous song Words by the Bee Gees in the 1960s: “words are all I have to take your heart away.” The failing of such a perception reveals itself after it’s discovered that there’s no real substance to those words. When it comes down to it, real unconditional love doesn’t have to announce itself.

The doctrines you referred to with their fleshly-made interpretation of love in Christ, the ones that cause us to get hungrier with each bite, they offer no substance because they are the same kind of words as spoken by the world. That’s why they can speak of love, and yet, when we take them in, we discover their emptiness!

Adam:
Jim at one time we were once told that Christ would accept and love us with ‘no strings attached’ and we believed it. But at some point we started getting distracted by the doctrines of men and the personal feedback we received in the ‘name of Jesus’ and even just our day to day experiences reaffirming it in the world at large. It seems that the religious mind of the world has gotten in there and perverted or set “logical” limits to this reality in Christ.

Jim:
The fleshly mind loves to quote phrases like “no strings attached,” but we’ve come to realize that there are always strings attached to the promises of man. Why should it surprise us to discover that we’ve been listening to religious salesmen who will lead us on in order to close the deal? Hey, how often do we read the Bible with the full expectation that we’re going to find more conditions to God’s love?

Adam:
Jim, that is so true. I think we while under the influence of the fleshly, religious mind, we literally go into the letters in the Bible thinking about and looking for more religion and more “strings” that are surely attached.
I often find that the religious mind will spread the idea that there is love in God but [yes here comes the limits], that there are technicalities we must be aware of! Jim, what about you? Do you see something similar?

Jim:
I’ve mentioned it before, but I vividly remember exactly where I was when I finally decided to “pray the sinner’s prayer” just in case God didn’t let me in heaven based on a technicality!

Adam:
Is it possible that man’s fears get the best of him when he goes to share the message of God’s love? I have often seen someone sharing God’s love only to slip in a conditional cleansing aspect that seems to throw the wall up on the very love they wish to convey. In this, could it be that a little yeast ruins the whole loaf?

Jim:
Yes, for the yeast is the law of sin, and it permeates every nook and cranny of those legal perceptions.

Adam:
Jim, maybe you could detour just enough to describe the dynamics of this “law of sin” because I’m thinking that many might be confused about this seemingly ominous phrase.

Jim:
Given its definition, which is, “The social, intellectual, or moral forces that produce activity and change in a given sphere,” dynamics is the perfect word to describe “the law of sin.” And we should note that the phrase in question here is not “the law of sins,” — which is how the legal mind is bound to view it, even when it makes its theological distinctions. For the phrase is “the law of sin.” And it refers to the workings of the very mind that views all things according to sin.

Adam:
Could you put that in a different context?

Jim:
Sure. Consider darkness. In reality, it is the absence of light. What I’m saying is that darkness is not a substance, rather, it’s the absence of a substance. Those who live in the daylight can see where they are going because of the light, and for them, darkness is recognized as belonging to the night. Those who live in the darkness of night cannot understand what they are living in, and so they can only define it by how it seems darker in some places than in others. Moralistic night-dwellers will define darkness by that which seems dark from their own perspectives, but the truth is that darkness defines everything belonging to the night. The bottom line in all this is that the beliefs, perceptions, and definitions of those who cannot see don’t have anything to do with the truth.

Adam:
So then, the dynamics of this law of sin?

Jim:
You see, it’s the legal mind that gets stirred up by laws and principles so that it can’t help but introduce an aspect of sin into every little thing it perceives. I’m going to pose a question someone asked me a few years ago, because it really highlights the fear and shame of the sin-conscious mind that influences us to this day. This person asked:
“If analyzed closely aren’t most things sin and if so how does one deal with the horrible guilt of it?”

Now, I’m guessing that not all of our listeners are quite as analytical as the guy who posed the question, because I suspect that many of us learned a long time ago to reject such an intensive introspection out of sheer self-protection.

Adam:
Self-protection? What do you mean by that?

Jim:
Simply, that many people have learned to avoid that deep pit of analytical despair by not going down the roads that bring so much pain. Something tells me that most of you who are hearing this have grown up pretty much the same as I did, for I was all about self-protection. It’s not that I didn’t have an analytical mind — because, my friends, the fleshly mind is sin-conscious by nature — it’s more that, I discovered how to distract my guilt-ridden, sin-conscious mind so that I wouldn’t drive myself crazy with the obvious implications of what it meant for sin to be embedded in everything. With every law, every rule, and every principle, I could not help but realize that sin was in everyone, and it was in everything I saw, everything I thought, everything I did, everything I said. I didn’t realize that I was analyzing everything because my self-protective nature kicked in and said, “Hey, let’s go do something fun!” I even learned that distracting myself with hard work could keep the boogeyman at bay.

Adam:
So, back to that question: “If analyzed closely aren’t most things sin and if so how does one deal with the horrible guilt of it?” — how did you answer it?

Jim:
“If you look for sin you shall surely find it, and the closer you look the more you will find.”
This perception describes the law of sin, for it speaks of the bondage of the mind that is caught in its grip. You see, it is not the mind of Christ that has been given to us that makes the conclusion that the Law is evil, rather, it is the mind of sin itself that demands it.
Now, many grace believers go through a stage — myself included — where they feel obligated to speak against the Law itself, rather than against the preaching of the Law. There’s a huge difference!
Hey, just because moralistic preachers have created the illusion that they agree with the Law, on the basis of preaching, let’s say, the 10 commandments, let us never forget that they are only preaching their own righteousness. After all, why else do you think so many people automatically assume that religious leaders are somehow better than than your average Joe? I’m telling you that if Jesus had walked into their temples, their pretentiousness would be revealed in the same way as was the scribes and Pharisees back then. Of course, don’t forget that after the religious leaders walked away from Jesus, they re-grouped, licked their wounds, and strengthened their resolve to convince the world that Jesus was the real offender.
You see, the law of sin allows a man to seemingly step right up to the throne of God and find sin in his[Christ’s?] presence. Oh yeah, a preacher of righteousness can sound so very spiritual when he defends the holiness of God’s Law, and yet, when he finds sin in those who have been justified in Christ, he is condemning Christ himself. And so, if you ever wonder why men can preach about the unconditional love of God and still add conditions to it, that should give you a big hint.

Adam:
Jim, I agree that many of us have learned in this world that there is a measure of “good news” but, that there is always bad news next! It reminds me of the phrase “do you want the good news or the bad news first?”. Of course everyone picks the good news first and then holds tight for the bad stuff. I think it is the same dynamic with the legal understanding of the law of sin. This good stuff just has to have a downside to it, a reasonable side to it, a logical and worldly balance of some kind!

But getting back to the subject of God’s Love here, what if Love simply fit the expression of what we see in the covenant ratified in Christ? After all God so loved that He gave!….We must remember that it is an expression of His love that brought forth the covenant that we stand in today!

Jim:
Indeed, for God himself IS love, and he definitely expressed that love in Christ!

Adam:
This is how Paul could do all He did through Gods love…Love is is patient, kind ,never proud, makes no demands of performance to get or receive that love. What if Paul came to recognize this miraculous description of love THROUGH the very covenant that was expressed to us in Christ?

Jim your thoughts?

Jim:
You know, I don’t think Paul could have recognized it by any other means. And the things he wrote testifies to this reality:

For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 2 Corinthians 5:14-17 NASB

And when you consider it, this whole section written by Paul is a fitting contrast to the deception that had swayed not only many of the Corinthian believers regarding love, but also many Christians in the world today.

Adam:
Why do we keep believing that the world can pull off unconditional love? Sure they talk about it but, can it be done after the flesh? Jim I have a little story I’d like to share with you.

Back when I was in my early twenties I worked in a fancy restaurant for some years. There was an older guy that worked with us youngins as a waiter that I distinctly remember hearing going on and on about the concept of “unconditional love” and how he had learned to ‘master’ control over others by standing in this sort of ‘divine’ approach to his daily life. Oh man, can I remember the sense of outright confusion it presented to me. You see, this guy was KNOWN for being quite impatient, impolite and rather arrogant for his whole shift pretty much from beginning to end. I also do not recall him ever making claim to Christ in any way. He simply looked at this unconditional love thing as a conceptual way to keep himself free from being manipulated by others demands. To him, it seemed as if it were some sort of tactic. lol

Jim any stories about the concept the world has of this unconditional love rather than the substance?

Jim:
There was a man who used to preach what he called PMA (Positive Mental Attitude) as the ultimate guide to living successfully in this world. People all around him were affected by it and would hold him and his philosophy up as the highest ideal of human goodness. I can tell you that at the slightest hint regarding the truth of the non-religious Christ, all that PMA disappeared in a heartbeat. Oh yeah, the highest form of human goodness cannot tolerate the real Jesus Christ.

[Expanding here?]
—————————————Break——————————————-
Adam:
No record of wrongs
Patience
Never failing
[all literal [[miraculous]] stuff!]

Adam:
Jim is it any wonder that after attempting to understand the love of God through the mind set of the world that we lose any sense of His truly miraculous love toward us? Take for instance Paul’s descriptions of godly love such as it “keeping no record of wrongs it’s being ‘patient’ and it never, ever failing. Again, God’s covenant should match up with His love toward us day after day.Let us not settle for the empty version or being conformed to the world’s vain mind that had to be brought to death in Christ!
Jim:
And yeah, that empty version of God’s love has so influenced the bulk of Christianity today that we often doubt the very truth of his love that has been poured out upon us, which is a love that never fails!

Adam:
Now some of you might be hearing this and be thinking well how does all this stuff play out in or treatment of each other? the fact is that we now can recognize that He is very much able to transform human motives for Him and each other..He can cause them to meld into His. Hey, the very fact that when the unbelieving seek Him, it most often starts out egocentric and self driven…but motive is left up to Him! He is able to miraculously transform and it is MORE than okay! Maybe we don’t even realize it when we do it…therefore we are holding ourselves and others to some sort of standard. The fact is that we simply “wait on the Lord” in this and He is the one who brings the deliverance just as He did for us when we believed.

Jim:
How else do we suppose the unbelieving could possibly come to him without him being the one to transform those human motives? Yeah, it’s all too easy to look back and project our perceptions of our own experiences upon others. Perhaps that’s why Paul included the following in his letter to the Romans:

Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? Romans 2:1-4 NASB

Once again, it is the sin-conscious mind that thinks lightly upon the riches of God’s kindness and tolerance and patience in leading a person to himself.

Adam:
What if WHEREVER the other person is- is just fine?? Shux, when I was first starting to look God’s way, I just remember thinking to myself ‘ I want to get holy” “clean up myself and get into a good crowd”….little did I know God was drawing me in BEHIND the scenes! If I had someone commentating the whole time about how I wasn’t doing it ‘right’, i didn’t have the right way of doing it, i was still involved in this or that so I wasn’t worthy to go toward the Light etc..I might have never come! What if they had said I didn’t have the right motives, the right look, the right words? What would my understanding of Christ have been then? Shoot, to this day after reading the description of Abraham’s faith in the letter to the Hebrews, I get thrown off because of the absurdity of what I can read of his outward behaviour while in the face of the writers stunning revelation that Abe was walking totally by faith in obedient reverence to Him!

Jim:
I wonder how many Christian messages represent exactly what you’re talking about: You did it wrong, and here’s the right way to do it!

Adam:
I wonder if the disciples were judged like this instead of by God’s choice of them, if ANY would have made it forward.

Jim:
I think we know that they would not have continued on. I mean, all we have to do is to pay attention to their own testimonies of God’s doing.
Here’s John’s claim:

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13 NASB

Why else did John detail what did NOT bring this birth about, unless it was so real and important to him that he felt compelled to write it down clearly? For in stating it, he removed everything of himself in what had happened to him and through him and in him.
…not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God!
Paul wrote:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:4-10 NASB

Adam:
—-
The natural mind was what Paul was highlighting in his letters. It ONLY knows of doing things out of fear of repercussion or avoiding punishment..what is so threatening about someone saying to you: no!…do this stuff from love??? it is in you! We get all thrown off by Peter’s statements and get a do-good vibe from him about not suffering as a ‘thief’ or bad guy but, he was pointing out this same reality…nothing more and nothing less!